RFK Jr. Pressured CDC Vaccine Policy, Says Susan Monarez

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. pressured Susan Monarez, former director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), to dismiss vaccine officials without cause and to pre-approve immunization policies regardless of scientific evidence, Monarez testified on Wednesday.

Monarez, who led the CDC for about a month before being fired in late August, told a Senate committee that the Health and Human Services (HHS) Secretary’s directives were “inconsistent with my oath of office” and that her refusal to comply sparked her ouster.

“He directed me to commit in advance to approving every [Advisory Committee for Immunization Practices] recommendation, regardless of the scientific evidence. He also directed me to dismiss career officials responsible for vaccine policy, without cause,” Monarez claimed. “He said, if I was unwilling to do both, I should resign. I responded that I could not pre-approve recommendations without reviewing the evidence, and I had no basis to fire scientific experts.”

“Vaccine policy must be guided by credible data—not predetermined outcomes,” she continued.

Monarez appeared before the Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions on Wednesday to testify on the recent turmoil at the CDC. Last month, the Trump Administration said it had fired Monarez. Her firing prompted several top CDC officials to resign, including then-Chief Medical Officer Dr. Debra Houry, an emergency physician who also appeared before the Senate committee on Wednesday. 

Monarez’s attorneys said she was “targeted” after she “refused to rubber-stamp unscientific, reckless directives and fire dedicated health experts.” A few days later, nine former CDC leaders wrote a piece for the New York Times, accusing Kennedy of endangering Americans’ health.

Kennedy called CDC ‘the most corrupt federal agency in the world,’ Monarez says

Monarez told the committee that Kennedy was “very upset” when she said she wouldn’t pre-emptively approve vaccine recommendations from an advisory panel. 

“The entire meeting was very tense. He was very upset throughout the entirety of our discussion, and it was not a productive exchange of information,” Monarez said. She claimed that Kennedy made a number of comments about CDC “that were particularly pointed and particularly hurtful and disparaging,” including accusing the CDC of being “the most corrupt federal agency in the world” and calling CDC employees “horrible people.”

“He said that CDC employees were killing children and they don’t care. He said that CDC employees were bought by the pharmaceutical industry. He said CDC forced people to wear masks and social distance like a dictatorship,” Monarez claimed. “And the one, I think, that hurt me the most was he said, during the COVID outbreak, CDC told hospitals to turn away sick COVID patients until they had blue lips before allowing them to get treatment.”

“Those statements are not true,” she emphasized.

Kennedy has yet to publicly respond to Monarez’s testimony. TIME has reached out to HHS for comment.

Read More: CDC Director Susan Monarez Refuses to Leave as White House Seeks to Oust Her Weeks Into Job

Sanders says Monarez was fired for protecting public health

Sen. Bernie Sanders, an Independent from Vermont, said during the hearing that Monarez “stood up for protecting the well-being of the American people, and for that reason, she was fired.”

Sanders went on to emphasize that the hearing was about far more than just Monarez’s firing. “The issue is deeper than that: It is about Secretary Kennedy’s dangerous war on science, public health, and the truth itself,” Sanders argued. “Unacceptably, we now have an HHS secretary who does not believe in established science, and who listens to conspiracy theorists and ideologues rather than doctors and medical professionals. It is absurd to have to say this in the year 2025, but vaccines are safe and effective.”

Monarez echoed that sentiment during her own testimony. 

“Today should not be about me. Today should be about the future of trust in public health,” she said. “I could have stayed silent, agreed to the demands, and no one would have known. What the public would have seen were scientists dismissed without cause, and vaccine protections quietly eroded, all under the authority of a Senate-confirmed director with unimpeachable credentials. I could have kept the office, the title, but I would have lost the one thing that cannot be replaced: my integrity.”

“Some may question my motives or mischaracterize my words; that is part of public life. But I am not here as a politician; I’m here as a scientist, a public servant, and a parent committed to protecting the health of future generations,” Monarez said.

How RFK Jr.’s policy changes led to turmoil at the CDC

Since Kennedy, a prominent vaccine skeptic, was confirmed to run HHS earlier this year, he has led several contentious changes to the country’s vaccination policy.

In May, Kennedy said the CDC would no longer recommend COVID-19 vaccines for pregnant women and healthy children. Several respected medical organizations, including the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, released their own guidance, diverging from Kennedy’s recommendations. 

A month later, Kennedy removed all the members of a committee that offers recommendations on vaccines to the CDC. He replaced them with new members, some of whom appeared to  share his vaccine skeptic views. In August, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) said that this year’s COVID-19 shots would only be approved for people ages 65 and older, or people who have a higher risk of developing serious illness—a considerable shift from previous guidance, which stated that the shots were recommended for everyone older than 6 months.  The change has left many people uncertain about if they will be able to get their COVID-19 boosters this year. Amid the uncertainty, several states—including Massachusetts, California, Oregon, and Washington—launched their own initiatives to protect vaccine access.

Read More: RFK Jr. Doubles Down on Vaccine Skepticism in Contentious Hearing

Hundreds of public health workers signed an open letter in late August that urged Kennedy to “stop spreading inaccurate health information” and commit to protecting staffers, in the wake of a shooting at the CDC headquarters in Atlanta just weeks before. The public health workers said the attack “came amid growing mistrust in public institutions, driven by politicized rhetoric that has turned public health professionals from trusted experts into targets of villainization—and now, violence.”

Wednesday’s hearing comes after Kennedy faced heated questioning from lawmakers during another Senate hearing earlier this month, including over his firing of Monarez and his recent changes to the country’s immunization policy. During the hearing, Sen. Tina Smith, a Democrat from Minnesota, questioned Kennedy over his remarks on a podcast, when he cast doubt on the safety of vaccines.

“When were you lying, Sir, when you told this committee that you were not anti-vax, or when you told Americans that there’s no safe and effective vaccine?” Smith asked Kennedy.

“Both are true,” Kennedy responded.

Senators split among Party lines over Monarez’s testimony

At the Senate hearing on Wednesday, many Democratic Senators praised Monarez and Houry for their testimonies—one of them, Massachusetts Sen. Edward Markey, called them “historic health care heroes.” Some even acknowledged that they had been hesitant of Monarez during her confirmation hearing to be CDC director, but now thanked her for her service. Many Republican Senators, on the other hand, cast doubt over Monarez’s testimony. Some sharply questioned Monarez about her decision to hire her attorneys, including Mark Zaid, who has publicly criticized President Donald Trump.

Sen. Markwayne Mullin, an Oklahoma Republican, accused Monarez of having “an honesty issue.” He claimed her meeting with Kennedy was recorded, and that her account of the interaction “isn’t how that conversation went.” The remark drew confusion from some Senators, who had not heard of such a recording. Later on, Sen. Bill Cassidy, a Louisiana Republican, announced that Mullin had since told reporters that he was mistaken in saying that the meeting was recorded.

“But in case he’s mistaken that he was mistaken, if there is a recording, it should be released. And it would beg the question of what other conversations were recorded,” Cassidy said. He added that the committee has sent a request to HHS for any records that would shed light on the situation, but that none have been received so far. Cassidy, a physician, had previously expressed concerns with Kennedy’s vaccine skeptic views, though he ultimately voted to confirm Kennedy as HHS secretary.

Houry learned of CDC vaccine guidance through social media

During the hearing, Houry revealed that she first learned that Kennedy had changed the CDC’s COVID-19 vaccine guidance through a post on the social media platform X.

“CDC scientists have still not seen the scientific data or justification for this change. That is not gold standard science,” Houry said. 

Houry repeatedly described her concerns over the growing mistrust in vaccines, and how declining childhood vaccination rates have already led to negative ramifications, such as the rise in measles cases. She said that she never briefed Kennedy on the measles outbreak response, which would typically be done during an outbreak response, and that she had to correct misinformation that he had publicly shared, including his false claims that vaccines contain “fetal parts.”

Sen. Christopher Murphy, a Connecticut Democrat, asked Monarez and Houry if they fear for the safety of CDC staffers and medical personnel if misinformation surrounding the CDC’s recommendations continue to proliferate. Both Monarez and Houry replied that they did. Houry cited the recent shooting at CDC headquarters.

“Each bullet was meant for a person, and each of my staff were very traumatized afterwards,” Houry said. “I had staff that were covering their kids in the daycare parking lot. There were people that were out at the rideshare as bullets were passing over their head. I have many that won’t speak about vaccines now and remove their names off of papers. They don’t wish to present publicly anymore because they feel they were personally targeted because of misinformation.”

“So you know of personnel who now will not put their name behind good science that they know would protect the health and safety of families and children because of their fear of violence?” Murphy asked her.